Today I was asked about a brand called “Viva”. What did I think about it. Well, frankly, I’d never heard of it so I decided to do some digging and found THIS. The Viva Roadster Moped 250cc Water Cooled or the MP250RO… Catchy. I couldn’t find the pedals on this moped, but that’s beside the point. The question is can you buy a NEW Honda Reflex for $1950 shipped? Look at this thing. Looks like a fully loaded Honda Reflex (discontinued as of 2008), but without the $6000 price tag AND it comes with extra storage AND a radio!
The answer is YES! You can! At least that’s the way it will seem for the first couple of hundred miles. THEN you reach the breakdown threshold… the 300 mile mark and all $#!+ breaks loose. If you want to see the buyers remorse in action, check out this post over at our good friend ScootDawg’s site.
Poor Mickster AJ buys one online and is happy as a clam! It’s quick, good storage, looks nice. Life is grand. Others chime in, “Hey! Looks great! Keep us posted!”, THEN *splat*. The poop hits the fan and at 300 miles… Observe:
1. The fuel gauge sending unit is evidently coming from China. I offered to repair it if the dealer took it out, but he needs to return it for credit (broken), so I just need to wait.
2. The engine idle speed is erratic and can not be adjusted to function properly when engine is cold and hot. Sometimes idles over 2000 RPM and some times stalls. Dealer says he will put a new Japanese carb on it, but is waiting for the fuel gauge sending unit to do the whole job at once.
3. Apparent fuel starvation at highway speeds after 5 miles of driving. It appears to run out of fuel and I must reduce speed to about 35 to 40 MPH and close and open the throttle repeatedly to keep it running. I suspect the fuel pump is the problem here.
4. Battery went dead. Recharged the battery and then determined the charging system was not functioning. Dealer says it was just a loose wire.
5. Suffered various electrical failures and found the plug-together connectors under the front cowl had multiple loose connections. Tweaked those I could to tighten them and replaced a few of the (Chinese junk) OEM connectors.
6. Can not find any matching paint for touch up.
7. Wife wants me to “get my money back” due to so many on-going problems.
This is just the day in the life of a clone my friend. Not sure if you’ve heard this quote or not… and I’m not sure from whom it originates, but it’s an ancient Latin phrase that goes like this: “Illa nanscisceris cui expendas” which, roughly translated, means “You get what you pay for.” A $1950 Honda Reflex clone is 1/3rd the price but not 1/3rd the quality. A real Honda Reflex wouldn’t have met these issues at 900 miles… maybe not even at 9,000 miles.
So the answer ends up being “Yes” if mileage <=299 miles. IF mileage >= 300 miles the answer is “No”. I’m not sure if that’s the same story for the other 10+ Reflex clones on the market, but I’m not going to run a study to find out.
***UPDATE 5/15/08***
To be fair, I’ve tried to look at this purchase from the standpoint of a buyer and I can see where this purchase might make sense. I’ve posted it in the comments below.
14. May 2008 at 7:16 pm
Yeah, I think I’d be looking for a refund as well. Throw the Lemon Law at them!
14. May 2008 at 7:41 pm
But but but everyone keeps telling us that China is the new Japan!…. ;P
14. May 2008 at 8:06 pm
PUKE!!! That bike is junk. It resembles a Reflex only and the few design changes make it uglier.
For the record my Reflex has over 13,000 miles on it and the only work so far has been scheduled maintenance.
I am surprised he at least has a dealer for that oversized lawn ornament.
- wisart
14. May 2008 at 9:04 pm
And that’s why I only buy used scooters. Any used Honda that will turn over has more miles left on it than one of those fly-by-night China scooters.
14. May 2008 at 9:34 pm
Lemon Law? Check.
China = New Japan? *EHHHH!*
PUKE!!? Check.
Used Honda = Better? Check.
I don’t want to come off as a China basher. I want to see them reach Taiwanese quality… but I can’t go over there and make ‘em care about quality. They gotta want it! And as long as WE will pay for disposable scooters quality will continue to “ride bitch”.
14. May 2008 at 10:25 pm
Fuel problem may be the gas cap is not vented or the fuel tank is not vented. Some motorcycles have a one way air check valve I assume scooters do too.
The trip to the gas gauge may be a result of the above.
14. May 2008 at 11:18 pm
I’m a little confused. I read the linked thread, and Mickster seems quite happy with his clone Reflex. He says:
Re: Viva 250cc roadster (honda reflex clone)
Post by mickster on Mar 28, 2007, 6:46pm
Just a follow up the original post. I have put around 400 miles on the scooter with only one issue to speak of. I had a fuel starvation issue when the bike was held wide open for more than a minute or if carrying a passenger and trying to hold a speed of 60mph. I replaced the vacuum fuel pump with a small electric automotive pump. Now the scooter runs fine wide open and with a passenger. Top speed is 75 mph (by the scooter speedo).
The turn signal indicators were hard to read during the day so I swapped them out with a number 70 bulb. It has twice the luminance of what was in it originally.
Am I completely dense, or has no one else actually read the linked thread?
15. May 2008 at 2:34 am
Actually Anon, I confused Mickster with AJ. Both had issues, but it was AJ who’s wife wanted him to send it back.
After sitting down and imagining the point of view of the purchaser, the Chinese scooter is not a bad purchase if you:
1) Don’t plan on keeping it more than 10,000 miles. I may be wrong here, so if you’ve got a Chinese clone with >10k miles, and you still like it, lemme know.
2) Don’t mind it’s low resale value.
3) Are ok with tinkering on it yourself. I know someone who sells Chinese scooters and before he sends them out he goes though and replaces all the junk and tweaks all the slop, tightens up the bolts, and paints over all the rust. Not every shop wants to spend the shop time doing those sorts of corrections.
4) If you don’t mind aftermarket support coming from other riders in an internet forum instead of a certified dealer/mechanic.
So, when I revisit this question I can see that my opinion is strictly that… an opinion. I’m a fan of “buying something that will last”. I’ve never been keen on “disposable living”. So, when I hear people say (and I have heard this) “yeah, so what? It breaks down at 800 miles, I get rid of it and buy a new one.” it really shivers-me-timbers.
15. May 2008 at 5:24 am
Mickster……… you are creative……. ad a Oklahome credit card to that fuel pump and we’ll ride with yah!
Bogwheeler
15. May 2008 at 9:11 pm
For comparison, wonder what type of Honda Reflex deficiencies owners have experienced?
15. May 2008 at 10:26 pm
Taiwan is part of China. You’ve got junk and you’ve got good stuff no matter where it may come from!
16. May 2008 at 1:13 am
I’m the owner of a 2003 Honda Reflex. 21,400 miles, no issues, do most of my own maintenance and the rest by my local dealer. No deficiencies here. The REAL Reflex is a quality bike.
16. May 2008 at 5:27 am
“…A real Honda Reflex wouldn’t have met these issues at 900 miles… maybe not even at 9,000 miles…”
I have a real Honda Reflex just edging up to 900 miles. There isn’t even a hint of any of this stuff going on. I’ve changed oil, fluids, and such, but fixed nothing. Go ahead and visit the Honda Reflex Yahoo group and you’ll see the only parts people replace at 9,000 miles are tires.
19. May 2008 at 10:09 pm
Why would one decide to open up the throttle at just 400 miles? Anyone who has read a manual would know that you have to “break in” a scoot. Especially if it’s CVT! Looks like an operator error.
3. June 2008 at 12:30 am
I have had a Roketta MC-54-250B since last Sept. 07 and have over 3000 mi. on it with NO problems. I have a total of $2500 invested and that includes tag,taxes, and registration.
If I paid $6000 to $8000 for a scooter I would be doing everything I could to justify my purchase, including bashing other makers. Folks, for every disgrundled owner there is ten satisfied owners in any brand. We only hear from the lemon owners though, and that’s sad.
SleezyRider
9. June 2008 at 10:15 pm
I’d beware of anything that came from China. It appears all they can copy are the looks. When it comes to quality of workmanship, they are lacking.
26. June 2008 at 3:00 am
Why is it that everyone believes this?
Linhai has a joint venture with Yamaha and their quality has been said to have gone up considerably… Crud, this is now two of the most used engines in Chinese Scooters…
Also, CF MOTO has been a very good brand for Quality overall and they’ve pretty much Cloned the 1980′s Honda Helix almost to a T.
As for Roketa, they sell bikes with both the Linhai/Yamaha Engine (257 and 275cc, which are both bigger than the 249cc in the Reflex) as well as the CF MOTO Engine (244cc Honda Clone).
Either way, if I hadn’t have found such a good deal on the Honda Reflex I was full prepared to drop $1800 (Shipped to my door) on a Roketa MC-250-54B and do all the PDI work before riding it.
9. July 2008 at 5:25 pm
Had a “Tank” 150 deluxe touring scooter, bought second hand (400 miles). No problems first year, except the smell of hot rubber after a ride. Had new belt installed. Second year, on second ride of the year, new kevilar belt shredded. Had to replace front variator and belt. Decided to replace entire Chinese scooter (1600 miles) with Suzuki Burgman 400. Much happier with quality, service and feel. True, Chinese is cheaper at start, but on the road, brand name can be serviced at almost any dealer.
17. July 2008 at 1:54 pm
I worked in Red China for 4 years and Leo? No Taiwan is not the same as Red China. Their system and quality standards are different even though China wants them in.
You get what you pay for, you would not believe some of the working conditions over there.
A welding machine is a transformer bolted on 2 2×4′s with taped wires coming into the leads and a piece of wood with welder glass in it for the hood.
Personally, The Red Chinese patriots said, This will be the Asian Century, the Gualou’s (white devils) have run things long enough.
So are we feeding future economic enemies like in the past? Germany, Japan? Iran? Iraq? Go ahead great Americans, buy cheap and feed future problems.
Dannyznice
5. September 2008 at 6:21 pm
Leo said…
Why would one decide to open up the throttle at just 400 miles? Anyone who has read a manual would know that you have to “break in” a scoot. Especially if it’s CVT! Looks like an operator error.
Ever hear of the Motoman Break-in?
The only right way to break in a new engine.
14. October 2008 at 2:37 am
anyone know how many miles a reflex can handle? I found one with 15k on it and I don’t know if it’s about at it’s breaking point.
17. January 2009 at 11:47 am
Good news, my clone has done nearly 6000km. Being chinese I had a few sequencing issues with the alarm system when I first bought it, and it has a little rattle in the exhaust, I’ve dropped it twice, I get it serviced every six months, and its still cruising. You just have to break them in gently, and get them serviced at around the 300km mark (not miles) to tighten everything up. Don’t know how long it will go for, and don’t actually care, I bought it cheap to run around in, with the hope it would last me 2 years, thus making it cheaper than the bus. The rational is not “will it last as long as a honda, but rather, is this the cheapest mode of transport. The answer is yes. The thing with these scoots is they look like the clone on the outside but have an engine closer to the old honda helix, and then they mish mash cheap chinese parts. So electricals are always a pain on them, but take it to the mechanic at the first grumble, throw some honda aftermarket parts on it (still cheaper)and run them until they die.
Assuming the engines are good, once you have replaced all the niggly rubbish bits, they’ll keep going, they’ll still cost you less than a honda.
I also have a chinese 150cc, and its never skipped a beat.
Quality control is a big issue in China. They will get it right eventually. Japan went through the same problems. Remember all the electrical car dramas of the early 80s? Or did we all forget? the big manufacturers only ever sell off the rights to their old engine production lines. The rest is “chinese innovation” (oh how innovative to rip off 3 different bike designs and mish mash them together!) So you usually do get a good engine. Its everything else that is questionable.